Be prepared. This is almost the length of a short book – some 20,000 words. But it gives a fascinating insight into the world of NXIVM rarely glimpsed by outsider.

I originally thought to break it up into part. But maybe this is the better way.

It is a secretly recorded conversation between Toni Zarattini and Emiliano Salinas. it was obtained by Artvoice/Frank Report. It reveals a great deal about the inner workings of NXIVM.  The translation is not a Google translation, but Frank Report arranged to have this translated by a Spanish speaking individual.

The secretly recorded call was made in August 2017, at a time when only Frank Report was publishing about the blackmail and branding of NXIVM women. [You will notice that there are several hostile allusion to Frank Report and to me by Emiliano Salinas.]

My notes are in bold to distinguish between the conversation of the two men and my explanatory points. For purposes of readability, I have eliminated some of the ‘ums’ and ‘ahs’ occasionally stuttering and repetition of words if I felt it did not add any context.

Other than that, here is the entire conversation between Zarattii and Salinas.

The tape begins: 

Toni Zaratini [TZ:] How are you?

Emiliano Salinas [ES]: I’m already in the hotel and finished my work and wanted to ask you, if you have time to talk, or if you have a time limit, because I want you to help me see several things with you.

TZ: Of course, I have time.

ES: Ok, cool. I kept thinking about the plane. Maybe it will sound stupid to you but when, in 1963, they avoided the [Cuban] missile crisis, because they could sit down and talk. It was beneficial for everyone. I think it’s good that we are speaking just like them.

TZ: Me too, Emiliano.

ES: Because, if there is the possibility of resolving things without the need for a confrontation, I am always in favor of that and, two, if there is a possibility that we are wrong in our perception, even if it is a small probability, I think it is worth it, before getting into chaos and maybe for nothing, right?

TZ: Yes, Emiliano, I agree.

ES: I mean, right?. I do not know,. I do not know exactly where to start, but I think I am willing to do it? I would like to know your perspective of what happened and I’ll tell you mine. What has happened eh? No doubt your perspective, will help me to understand your actions and maybe mine can enrich yours and maybe we can achieve a more objective appreciation of what is happening, right?

TZ: Correct, very correct. If you want, I’ll tell you my process. For me, it all started when we went to the Coach Summit [a retreat where NXIVM coaches meet to learn NXIVM leader, Keith Raniere’s latest ideas for teaching and recruiting members], and I learned the news that Mark [Vicente] and Sara Edmondson left [NXIVM].  I was very surprised because the interactions I had with Mark – and because I know the relationship you had with him and Keith; the relationship I developed with Mark. We had seen each other in the conferences in Leon, you remember. My view of Mark was that he was very committed [to NXIVM] and he was one of ​​the best recruiters in the company.  I mean, he was on the Board [of Directors] with you. This was my image of Mark and his history I knew, because I saw how, from the moment he first joined [NXIVM] until he got to where he was, right? Well I went and asked Loretta [Garza, a High Ranking NXIVM leader] because I was not satisfied with what they [other NXIVM members] said [as the reason he left]– that he was filming movies, which was the explanation they gave when you were [away] having your babies – your baby.

ES: No, two babies

TZ: Oh yes, correct, you had two.

ES: Yes, two –  boy and girl.

TZ: Oh, ok.

ES: And it has been good, I’ll tell you.

TZ: I imagine. So, Loretta gave me an explanation. But it was very strange because [Loretta said the reason Mark left NXIVM was because] Mark got angry because [his wife] Bonnie [Piesse] had a problem at the Source [Raniere’s and Allison Mack’s acting course] with those who were there [in the management of the Source] and because of that, Mark decided to leave because of his process that he could not solve certain things. OK? And then I also found out about Sarah Edmondson, who left [NXIVM], and why did she leave? [NXIVM members said] Because she was having a tantrum because it seems she wanted Mark’s position [in NXIVM]. But it was not very clear and understandable to me, Emiliano, honestly. And so we continued in Coach Summit. I did not continue to inquire or anything.

[Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson quit because Raniere started a ‘sorority’ among women where they were branded and blackmailed. Sarah was branded. her husband Anthony Ames found out about it and was angry about it. The stories Loretta Garza – who reportedly is also branded – told Toni were typical NXIVM coverup lies.] 

2

Jimena Garza; Omar Boone admits DOS is true

 

3.

 

Part 3 of the secretly recorded phone conversation in August 2017 between Toni Zarattini and Emiliano Salinas.

Toni Zarattini [TZ] Then I asked Omar [Boone, head of Monterrey] ‘I want you to tell me if it’s true, that Keith has sex with his students.’ Not because I’m shocked that someone can have a lot of sex, man, not because of this, that for me is no problem, but for me, there is a problem because I have an idea of ​​Keith and I have kept that idea and I have kept what everyone has told me about him [Raniere] and even he introduced himself to me as someone who has all these values ​​of compassion and humanity and it is like the clear example we have, and I’m sorry, but I honestly cannot see, or conceive how a person with the authority [of the teacher] that he represents in an organization of these things that you and I know may look good, and that student can date the guru [Raniere]. 

I mean, shut up. I cannot conceive that as something good and then if it is something that has been kept secret, then neither. Because they could have said from the beginning, ‘Look Keith is a super normal human being who does all this kind of things [having sex with students] and thinks that these are good ideas, but, dude, we think he is an integrated human being, he is a unified person that would never attempt anything that would not help the other person.’ So, sorry, I’m going to stay in my process, because I’m telling you about my process.

Then at that point, Omar told me, “No, Toni, check it out. Check the consistency, check out the history that you have of him [Raniere]. This does not happen. I could put my hands in the fire pit for him.”

Ok, man, it’s good. I said, [Still] it’s so stupid. The woman thing [DOS] because if it’s [already] hard to enroll [now]. The day this comes out to the light, dude, that this women’s group does this type of practice here, we will see who we will be able to enroll; when it comes to light that there is a group of women-’ and he [Omar] told me it is not a group of ESP, it’s a [separate] group of women.

[I told him] ‘I don’t give a damn. If Allison Mack is the one in the head and then you have to enlist 6 women and each woman has to enlist 6 slaves; they call them slaves, they brand themselves. What the fuck by holy shit, dude.’

At that point then Jimena and Omar said, ‘These are of your fears. These are your issues; you have to work all this.’

Dude, [I told Omar and Jimena] Marial already wants to leave [NXIVM]. She wants to take my children out of Rainbow [Cultural Garden].’ I was between scared and sad and fuck, now, what I’m going to do? I really believed in this [NXIVM], or I believe in this. I want to believe in this.

A conflict started in me and I said [to Omar and Jimena], ‘Good, maybe I can calm down and maybe I can swallow the concept of a group of [slave] women, but Marial won’t, dude. Then what shall I do with Marial?” and they said, ‘well these are your issues work with them.’

So there you go out to buy and pay for EMs [Exploration of Meaning, a costly NXIVM therapy] with Lauren [Salzman], with Carmen and so on for 3 more weeks and, at the same time, my sister-in-law was in the [Vanguard, unaccredited] University, with [everyone having] questions every day like ‘do you know who left,’ and ‘there is a rumor that there is a group of women who were branded’ and ‘Keith this, and that,’ and people [attending the Vanguard University] talking about it all day long and there I was trying to put out the fire with my sister-in-law. I kept telling her not to worry. Nothing is happening. Those are pure rumors, and so, dude, I knew I had already spoken with Sarah Edmondson, knowing that some of these things were true and that Omar already had confirmed this to me, and, on the other hand, people kept saying, ‘Do not say anything. Don’t speak anything. Don’t mention the subject.’

This ‘don’t say’ and ‘do not speak’ began to make a lot of noise in my head – to the point that one day, not long ago, my sister-in-law tells me, ‘Guess what? Vasco [NXIVM coach] has already left, because of the things that you are telling me are not true. He inquired, did an investigation.’

So I told her, ‘Let’s see. I want to talk with Vasco.’

I spoke to him and he confirmed what my sister-in-law said to me: that he spoke with many people and I told him, ‘Hey, I want to talk to people. I want to know from their own mouth. I want to begin to understand what this is about.’ I said all this to him and then I asked him if they are willing to talk to me. He made a list of people who were willing to talk to me and they started telling me their story about how some were in the group of [DOS] women and others had [sexual] relationships [with Raniere] for years with him and one of them just left. I met her in Jness and she just left because she could not deal with that [harem] situation and well, at that moment, well, dude, what do I have left, Emiliano?  I cannot continue in this, man.

Then, at the same time, Roberto Cárdenas [a NXIVM coach from Leon] calls me and says, ‘Hey Tony, why did you cancel the Intro [NXIVM course] today and I told him that my dad got sick, and he said, ‘No, I don’t think your dad got sick. I think you have something else, dude, and I need you to tell me because I’m restless and because there are many doubts. Students are asking me a lot of things. I do not know what to say. Nobody says anything to me. I asked Adriana. Nobody says anything. I asked [redacted] Nobody says anything. I asked David. Nobody says anything.

I told him to ‘come here, man sit down’ [and meet], and I told Roberto Cárdenas, ‘I just found out about this. It makes me fucking mad dude. They have already shut my mouth a lot.’  I started like that so I started talking like that.

He told me, ‘No fucking way. Marce is also very angry, can you talk to her too?’ And I said, ‘of course I can. Why not? I am seeing, I am realizing that this [DOS] exists and has too much inconsistency for me, and it’s outside of ESP and has nothing to do with what I have seen in these past 12 years, but, man, shit with this, this has too much inconsistency. The people are scared. They are hurt. I do not think they invented {the stories about DOS] They are not inventing it, because some live in one part of the United States and others live on the other side. Some have just left, man. It can’t be dude. It cannot be lots of people agree to tell lies and are far apart in age differences and time differences.’

You know what I said, ‘I think I’m going to get out of this, and everyone can search for their information and make their decision man.’

Part 3

Then, I asked Omar ‘I want you to tell me if it’s true, that Keith has sex with his students.’ Not because I’m shocked that someone can have a lot of sex, man, not because of this, that for me is no problem, but for me, there is a problem because I have an idea of ​​Keith and I have kept that idea and I have kept what everyone has told me about him [Raniere] and even he introduced himself to me as someone who has all these values ​​of compassion and humanity and it is like the clear example we have, and I’m sorry, but I honestly cannot see, or conceive how a person with the authority [of the teacher] that he represents in an organization of these things that you and I know may look good, and that student can date the guru [Raniere].  I mean, shut up. I cannot conceive that as something good and then if it is something that has been kept secret, then neither. Because they could have said from the beginning, ‘Look Keith is a super normal human being who does all this kind of things [having sex with students] and thinks that these are good ideas, but, dude, we think he is an integrated human being, he is a unified person that would never attempt anything that would not help the other person.’ So,  sorry, I’m going to stay in my process, because I’m telling you about my process, then at that point, Omar told me, “No, Toni, check it out. Check the consistency, check out the history that you have of him [Raniere]. This does not happen. I could put my hands in the fire pit for him.” Ok, man, it’s good. I said, [Still] it’s so stupid. The woman thing [DOS] because if it’s hard to enroll [now]. The day this comes out to the light, dude, that the women’s group does this type of practice there, we will see who we will be able to enroll; when it comes to light that there is a group of women-’ and he [Omar] told me it is not a group of ESP, it’s a [separate] group of women. [I told him] ‘I give a damn. If Allison Mack is the one in the head and then you have to enlist 6 women and each woman has to enlist 6 slaves; they call them slaves, they brand themselves. What the fuck by holy shit dude.’

At that point then Jimena and Omar said ‘these are of your fears; these are your issues; you have to work all this.’ Dude, Marial already wants to leave [NXIVM]. She wants to take my children out of Rainbow [Cultural Garden]. I was between scared and sad and  fuck now what I’m going to do. I really believed in this [NXIVM], or I believe in this. I want to believe in this. A conflict started in me and  I said [to Omar and Jimena], ‘Good, maybe I can calm down and maybe I can swallow the concept of a group of [slave] women, but Marial won’t dude. Then what shall I do with Marial?” and they said, ‘well these are your issues work with them.’ So there you go out to buy and pay [for] EMs [Exploration of Meaning NXIVM therapy] with Lauren [Salzman], with Carmen and so on for 3 more weeks and on the other hand my sister-in-law was in the [Vanguard] ‘University’ with a bunch of questions every day and you do not know who left, and there is a rumor that there is a group of women branded and Keith this and that, and people talking about it all day long and there I was trying to put out the fire with my sister-in-law. I kept telling her not to worry. Nothing is happening those are pure rumors, and so dude, I knew I had already spoken with Sarah Edmondson, knowing that some of these things were true and that Omar already had confirmed this to me, and, on the other hand, people kept saying, ‘Do not say anything. Don’t speak anything. Don’t mention the subject.’ ‘Don’t say’ and ‘do not speak’ began to make a lot of noise in my head – to the point that one day, not long ago, my sister-in-law tells me, ‘Guess what? Vasco [NXIVM coach] has already left, because of the things that you are telling me are not true. He inquired, did an investigation.’ So I told her, ‘let’s see. I want to talk with Vasco.’ I spoke to him and he confirmed what my sister-in-law said to me: that he spoke with many people and I told him, ‘hey, I want to talk to people. I want to know from their own mouth. I want to begin to understand what this is about.’ All this, then I asked him if they are willing to talk to me. Then he made a list of people who were willing to talk to me and they started telling me their story about how some were in the group of [DOS] women and others had [sexual] relationships [with Raniere] for years with him and one of them just left. I met her in Jness and she just left because she could not deal with that [harem] situation and well, at that moment, well, dude, what do I have left, Emiliano?  I cannot continue in this, man, and then, on the other hand, Roberto Cárdenas calls me and he says, ‘Hey Tony, why did you cancel the Intro [NXIVM course] today and I told him that my dad got sick, and he said, No’ to me. ‘I don’t think your dad got sick. I think you have something else, dude, and I need you to tell me because I’m restless and because there are many doubts. Students are asking me a lot of things. I do not know what to say. Nobody says anything to me. I asked Adriana. Nobody says anything. I asked [redacted] Nobody says anything. I asked David. Nobody says anything,” I told him to ‘come here, man sit down’ [and meet], and I told Roberto Cárdenas, ‘I just found out about this. It makes me fucking [mad] dude. They have already shut my mouth a lot.’  I started like that so I started talking like that. She told me ‘no fucking [way]. Marce is also very angry, can you talk to her too?’ And I said ‘of course I can. Why not? I am seeing, I am realizing that this [DOS] exists and has too much inconsistency for me, and it’s outside of ESP and has nothing to do with what I have seen in these past 12 years, but, man, shit with this, this has too much inconsistency. The people are scared; they are hurt. I do not think they invented {the stories about DOS] They are not inventing it because some live in one part of the United States and others live on the other side, some have just left man, it can’t be dude. It cannot be lots of people agree to tell lies and apart with age differences and time differences. You know what I said, ‘I think I’m going to get out of this, and everyone can search for their information and make their decision man.’

Then I thought of two people I wanted to talk to because I want them to have the information that I learned, that I investigated, that I searched for. That was Gerardo Ayala, dude, because he is my friend and he is my brother and because once when I was married to my ex-wife, when my ex-wife was making me a puss, he and Ana [Risoul] came to me and told me things; they were probably going to get into trouble because I was in a relationship with my wife and they told me and it was definitely worth it, dude, because they could not do much, but they tried man and after some time I realized that it had been good intention. So I went and spoke to Gerardo Ayala and I said ‘Dude, this is happening, open your eyes. Check the information; search for information. I do not know what will happen to Ana, dude, because Ana is very into it and surely there will be a problem, but I think you have to search and open your eyes because this is not cool dude. It’s not cool, not because they’re going to hurt you man; it’s not cool.’

Shit, you know, why I am so pissed off, Emiliano? I dedicated 20 hours a week for this thing, 20 hours to help students to work in the [ESP] center, to teach Ethos, to put out fires, a whole lot of things and then they come out with this shit, the group of [DOS] women and Keith [having sex with a lot of his students]. Keith doing that kind of thing, it pisses you off man! It’s like a big disappointment and then it coincides with Jimena’s ‘shut up and do not ask anymore, do not make a fuss about it, it’s your issues’ and all this, man, then after talking with Gerardo Ayala. Gerardo Ayala told me ‘stop talking about this to people.’ I said, ‘ok, dude, it’s okay. I’m not going to talk to people anymore.’ I think the next day, this was a Friday, the next day suddenly in the morning so, 1, 2, 3, I got kicked out of almost all the chat [rooms]–  Are you there?

ES: Yes.

TZ: They took me out of all the chats. They took me out of staff [as a teacher of] Ethos, of all the committees, up to the telegram that I do not use the telegram. I do not use that thing. I only use Whatsap. From all sides, they took me out, and then Omar Boone writes me, ‘Toni, we do not know which side you are on, man. That’s why we took you out of the chats.’ Fuck, and after that Marial came back from a trip and at the airport I told her, ‘Did you see they took me out of the chats.?’ She said. ‘Well, me too.’  I said, ‘what?’ I asked her,  “Did someone call you or something/” She said nothing.

Dude, you have to understand something, Emiliano, you surely pay for it and surely you will pay much more now that you have your kids; you are going to pay more but I paid $100,000 pesos a month [$5075 US] for Rainbow {Cultural Garden]. 100,000 pesos a month, dude. Few people do that. Few people believe in a system like this. Carola [Garza, the head of Rainbow Cultural Garden in Monterrey] did not even have the decency to talk to Marial, to ask anything, or to say anything [before kicking their children out]. The Rainbow group, the Rainbow moms, I mean, she didn’t even ask her. Nobody even asked me if we were thinking of getting out or leaving. [Asking] ‘What are you doing? [They said] nothing, dude, you are an outsider dude, like a criminal. Well yes, dude, three hours later I wrote a goodbye message and [wrote] ‘I’m leaving.’ I do not remember what I put in the message and obviously after that 40 or 50 people from inside the organization called me and asked me, ‘Why did you leave? What is happening? Why did they kick you out of the chats? Why do you want to leave?’ Well, what do you want me to tell them Emiliano? Not to tell them anything, dude? What should I do there?

ES: No, I understand you. I obviously hear you from your perspective and of course I understand that I do not think you’re crazy, Guajajara, I do not think that one day you went crazy, so I’m interested to know how that process was for you because surely from your perspective and from what you have lived and the assumptions that you have, of course, you are right, and surely I would have done the same from your place.

TZ: Yes ok, well yes and you know what, Emiliano? I understand that my actions have caused economic damage [to NXIVM] and caused other people to make the decision to leave. I understand this, but after I [left] Paloma left and you spoke to Paloma – and are you there?–

ES: Yes. Yes

TZ: Ah I talked with Paloma and well, because Paloma has her version, right? But also it’s not fair that they lied to her. She is sure that Jimena lied to her about certain things and well, dude, now she’s branded and she will be branded for life, dude.  And so there is nothing left, dude, it’s like this, it’s gross. You don’t even want to say, ‘Hey, yes, I left because I decided this did not to go with my values.’ Damn, the truth, no, it hurts a lot. It has hurt a lot and I understand this has caused damage to you and I would like to stop the problem, that’s the truth.

ES: Well I think the same. Well and about Alejandro [Junco] how did that happen, like the last chapter in this telenovela and I do not know how it happened.

TZ: Alejandro is the same dude, is part of, for me, it is like Laurel is my friend.  Luis is my friend. For me what was happening was not ok, it was not ok, and I went to look for him because I know he has never agreed [with his daughter being in NXIVM]  and for me, it has been a revelation that this is not cool so what can we do so this does not happen anymore? That is the truth, Emiliano, and well,  I think this was a mistake. I think it is a mistake because, for example, yesterday, you talked to me, I started to think, ok, you called me, or at the time that you talked to me, and you started talking, and you showed me what you are like. I said ‘Yes, I did not think about you, or that I’m going to hurt Emiliano,’ no man, I started thinking and looking at it more as with like with a bad intent, where, if they ask me, I can’t say what I think, dude.

ES: Yes I understand.

TZ: So —

ES: I feel that way too. I am also one of the people who cannot say something I do not believe in, or say something I do not believe in, so I don’t think its strange, right?

TZ: Right.

ES: Maybe I do not see things exactly as you see them, but if I understand what you’re saying to me and how you told me yesterday, maybe we do not agree with the whole situation, but I also felt your were honest when you said your intention was not to hurt. The truth it does not go there.

TZ: Right, correct.

ES: And from my side, it’s the same Ok? Do you want me to tell you a little about my side? Or is there something more?

TZ: Of course

ES: So look, you told me in chronological order and I’ll tell you as it comes out, but the end for me is we have an open, preliminary investigation against a group of people who have been extorting us for a long time, trying to extort money, and when I say extort.  I mean we have letters addressed to me where basically, not exclusively me, but I’m included, where basically it says ‘if you do not give me X amount of money, I will destroy your company. I will destroy your reputation and I will destroy your relationships.’

[Ed. note: I would like to see those letters because I believe Emiliano is lying.]

TZ: That is extortion of course.

ES: That’s clear and plain extortion, right? And then, on the other hand, well and these people do not know what has happened. For several years anyone who fights with the organization, I do not know if it is designed or coincidence, but [they] always ends up working with those who have left before. It also makes sense to me, I imagine. I imagine that at the time when you were on one side in a fight, right? And then you fight with the side you were [once on]  I don’t think it’s crazy to go to the other side, right? It is even a way to seek support, I think. The thing is that several important people left the organization. It has nothing to do with leaving the organization, it has to do with fighting with us.

TZ: Okay

ES: Many people have left the organization and we are still good friends and nothing else happens; they are no longer in the organization, the same, hey you have left the organization, you are like those who say I am a clear example of those who have stopped smoking. I have stopped smoking a few times.

TZ: Yes

ES: You have also left the organization. It has happened many times and it has never been a problem; that is not a problem. [But] These people have declared war against us and they have been extorting us.

TZ: Okay

ES: Then suddenly we find a person [Toni Zarattini] and this almost, has not happened in Mexico has almost [always] been in the United States and there have been actions in Mexico, suddenly realize that that person who is you, right? That from our perspective is [now] carrying out all the threats that this group [of supposed extortionists] has made against us for years [for money], to destroy our company too, to destroy our reputation and destroy our relationships. And that person [in Mexico i.e. Zarattini] who is doing those actions that are carrying out the threats that we have been subjected to for years is in contact with these people. At least that’s what they have made us believe, right?

TZ: But wait Emiliano, what people specifically?

ES: Well, Mark [Vicente] and Sarah [Edmondson].

TZ: Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson?

ES: Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson are in direct contact with the extortionists. And also doing the same actions that are destroying the company, our reputation and our relationships. And you have been in contact with them.

TZ: I’ve been in contact with them, just as I told you, I’m not part of an organization, it’s not like I talk to them every day.

ES: No, I understand. I am telling you what I heard before speaking with you. The pieces of the puzzle that I have is, here is a group of people who are extorting us and have threatened us with very specific things. Then they have enlisted another group of people to carry out these threats. Of course, curiously, they put out their hands. Because we know that those who are carrying out the threats are actively destroying our reputation and it’s Frank Parlato.

TZ: Yes, the one from Frank Report?

ES: Yes the one from Frank Report, then directly he is destroying, but Frank Report is receiving information from Mark and from Sara and from Barbara Bouchey and from other people. Then they hide their hand and we have armed the chain from which other people are carrying out their threats.

TZ: Ok ok.

ES: And then you start doing the same actions [in Mexico] that they are doing in the United States, but in Mexico. Do you know what the picture looks like on my side? Now you are the executor in Mexico. That is part of the reason why I called you yesterday and part of the reason why I wanted to explain to you my perspective. I do not want you to become part of the extortion without knowing it.

TZ: Aha.

ES: Because I can have the perspective that it is, if you take this to a judge, right? Well, in one of those [criminal complaints], the judge says it’s A plus B plus C plus D; so what is going on here? And because I intuited, I do not know, sometimes it’s a vibe, sometimes it’s what  I sensed – that you did not have all this information. So I said, ‘no, I do not want to put Tony in a problem [by making a criminal complaint against him]. That he gets into a problem without knowing it and without wanting it.  He does not really have the full perspective. It’s all the information about what is happening and that he is unknowingly instrumental in an extortion. An extortion is being investigated and not only in Mexico but also in several countries, right? So I know that you are not extorting anyone and right now what you are telling me I understand perfectly. I even understand the intention with which you have done all these things, but even with that good intention, if you end up being instrumental in an extortion then it’s good that we can stop this immediately and it’s good that we can redirect it, because you’re not an extortionist are you?  (Emiliano laughs). And I know it.

TZ: Well, of course not.

ES: So if you understand what comes to me from what we started to see, then that’s why all the antennas stick up. I’ll tell you an additional thing, and I’ll tell you because we’re talking transparently. Someone told us that you had spoken directly with Barbara Bouchey or that you had been in a conversation where Barbara Bouchey was on a conference call.

TZ: That I had been in a conference call with her?

ES: Yes, that some people spoke to you, several people, and mentioned your name and that of Barbara Bouchey in the same conversation. That’s what came to us.

TZ: Ok, that is false.

ES: Ok then for us, you were not only in communication with Mark and with Sara; we got to think that you were also in direct communication with Barbara Bouchey. That already speaks of a [supposed extortionate] group, right? Well that group exists, and for you to belong to that group–.

TZ: I saw it when I went to [see] your lawyer, this shit and there is the name of Susan Dones and he mentioned the name of Toni Natalie.  I mean, I know Susan Dones and I know Barbara Bouchey. I know her because they were in the [NXIVM] organization.  Toni Natalie I have only heard  she was Keith’s girlfriend and they started to mention to me people whom I really do not know who they are, dude.

ES: No, surely you do not know everyone. No, because I’m going to tell you this is much bigger and it’s good that they gave you all that information. Because it has nothing to do with you. I want to get you out of this [you are] in the middle of this knot because it is a terrible knot that we have here. We have been trying to solve it for several years, against people who are extorting us for millions of dollars

TZ: Yes, {Emiliano’s lawyer] he told me they are asking for 10 million dollars.

ES: Sorry?

TZ: They are asking for 10 million dollars

ES: They are [asking for] several million dollars. Why should I give you the amount?

TZ: I’m telling you what your lawyer told me.

ES: Well, so he told you, then, and suddenly you stop inadvertently. Right now I’m listening to you and you know what was going on in my head? ‘Shoot, dude, with the best intentions, you stood in the line of fire.’

TZ: Yes crossfire.

ES: And I’m going to tell you one thing too. I think it’s very crappy on their [the NXIVM enemies’] part because I think none of them mentioned anything to you that if you did certain things it might even get perceived that you were helping extortion.

TZ: Nobody has said absolutely nothing of that. The  flag of Vasco, of Sarah of Nippy [Anthony Ames, Sarah’s husband], I tell you the flag of outside of this is, ‘here we are here to help you, dude. What do you need?’ and ‘This is what happened to me. This is what I saw. This is what I lived’ and that’s it, that is the flag I perceived.

ES: Yes, but that’s half of the movie, because I can tell you this is what I experienced, right? Suppose I tell you that such a person cheated on me, right? You say ’shit what the fuck!’ But what if I tell you such a person cheated on me and now I’m thinking how to kill him.

TZ: It’s different.

ES: It’s very different, right? I do not know if you would still like to walk with me if I told you the whole story. Then they are telling you what happened to them, but they are not telling you what they are doing [extorting]. And by not giving you the whole movie, well they put you in a situation of much disadvantage to make decisions.

TZ: I agree.

ES: So, well, it does not seem cool to me. This is where we are. Look I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you how I found out, because I found out about all this, shoot, practically while my children were being born.

TZ: Ah, at [the time of] the Coach Summit.

ES: Well, I did not go to Coach Summit because my children were being born and I learned all these things by remote control, Anyway, what did I conclude, I am interested to know what conclusion you get from everything you have lived in these three months. Let’s suppose you had not talked to me. What conclusion did you get from everything that all the people with whom you spoke told you. What is your conclusion of the 12 years that you were in ESP and everything that you lived and everything that is happening as to how you see it today after all this.

TZ: Everything to me, or everything I have explained to my parents, Emiliano, because they have asked me, ‘why, why after so many years that we have been against this?’. Since I entered [NXIVM], they [Toni’s parents] have never liked it.

ES: I know. I was at your ranch. I saw your dad.

TZ: If how is it possible that for so long I —

ES: Mark and I were at your ranch.

TZ: ‘How is it possible that so much time has passed,’ [his parents wanted to know] and I explained [to them] what it is. Damn, I never saw anything bad dude, never man. In fact when I went to the singing classes with Keith, it never crossed my mind that Keith went to bed with any of them and dude, at that point, I say, ‘OK, it’s people with whom you share part of your life and there they are with him because they are’. Well it has nothing wrong dude, nothing is wrong, nothing, but the only thing is the secret part, the only bad thing for me, Emiliano, was this ending, those secrets, and then having spoken with people who have had [sexual] relationships lately with Keith and even a young girl dude. [Ed. Note: this may be statutory rape]. It’s like, I tell you, what for? Really? But look at the end; it’s all the context, the combination [of things] and the ‘shut up, don’t say a word,’  and all the group of lies. Dude, is just that, because from before all that, Emiliano,  I’m going to tell you, I did not see anything bad, dude.

ES: Well, that is what interests me, because today I could even, inclusively, I mean, I may know that maybe you are not like that. I mean, it also requires strength to be able to not to contaminate everything from the past, right?

TZ: Right.

ES: Your perspective of the latest events, not only inside ESP, that happens everywhere. You have a relationship with a person and it is a fantastic relationship and suddenly something makes the person ruin the relationship and then contaminate all our internal representation of the relationship

TZ: Right the truth is that I’m trying not to do that because it’s horrible to try to destroy everything good. I do not want to do that. In fact I’d like to stop that.

ES: Well, let me give you my perspective and if its ok for you to see where our perspectives agree and where they may not agree and see how we can have a more objective perspective on this issue. Because my perspective in some parts matches yours and in other ways my experience does not. I’m going to tell you where all this started for me. About 3 years ago a friend of ESP with whom I  shared a lot, enough in the sense that she could see, for example, that I could see that she had problems, dysfunctional problems with her food, right? In other words, I lived with her long enough to see that suddenly she was drastically rising in weight suddenly, losing weight quickly and struggling a lot with that. And suddenly I started to see, and for several months I saw, that she was very stable. It seemed like finally she had turned that [weight] issue [of being super skinny as Raniere requires] around. Then one day, talking to her, I told her, ‘Hey I’m glad to see that you’ve been able to turn around this topic that you’ve struggled with for years with this issue’. And, we all have things. You can take [control] and you never see the problem again and others you get 200 EMS and the problem is still there, right? It’s our issue. And I knew this was one issue for this woman.

TZ: Ok.

ES: And she told me. ‘the truth is that, yes, there have been several months in which I haven’t broken my word [about not eating too much], in which I have been able to sustain myself in that there is no tantrum that is worth, there is no reaction or no anxiety reaction that would make me pounce over the box of cookies as I did before.’

I said, ‘that’s so cool. It gives me great pleasure.’ and she told me, ‘I’m going to tell you what I did, because I think it’s a little radical, but it worked.’

I said, ‘what did you do?’ She tells, ‘There came a moment when I hit bottom and said its impossible. That there is no way where I can hold my word. I cannot believe that with everything I have, with everything I have learned, with what matters to me [staying super skinny]. I mean this is my life and I cannot sustain my word.’  Then she said, ‘what I did was put a consequence that would insure to myself that I was not going to break my word. And I started to think., “What could hurt me the most in my life?” And I came to the conclusion that what could hurt me most in life is to cause a shame or a disgrace to my family and then what I decided to do was to film myself and make a video that by its nature was obviously a sexual video’ of her with her [masturbating]. I did not see it, of course, but what she told me is she filmed herself in a video and she told me, ‘if this came out publicly this would be devastating for my family’ and only to think about it, she would never do anything that could make that happen or even take the risk of that happening. Then she made the video and gave it to a friend and told her friend, ‘if I go back to breaking my word about this, [not over eating] you have my authorization to upload this video to social networks.’ She said, ‘fuck I almost died when I did it. I mean I told myself, “no way you just did this,” but I had tried everything and nothing had worked’. And from that moment she did not break her word again.

TZ: Okay.

ES: That’s something I knew because she told me about it 3 years ago and-

TZ: Good achievement, dude, is fine-

ES: Good achievement, it’s okay, a bit radical, a bit extreme, but damn I know that there are times that you can have issues and you can’t get over them. I thought it was something good. I thought it was very good. I thought it was fantastic. 3 years later we are in Mexico and one of my proctors tell me, ‘hey, I got a text that when it got it, it shook me up. I wrote to the person [who texted] and she said: “No, sorry, that text was not for you. Please I ask you to erase it and forget it” and my proctor told me, ‘I cannot forget it because she tells me ‘then look, I brought it to you.’ She showed me the text and the text was a confession by this person, it was a woman, a confession that [she] belonged to a child prostitution network and she was confessing it. I said ‘no way,’ only this is what we needed! then I looked for Alex [Betancourt] and told him, ‘look we have this text and she was also a person who had taken the program a couple of years ago. I think she had taken Jness and as I told the proctor to go back to this person and tell her that you can’t ignore it, you can’t forget it and that she has to explain to you what is happening. Then she did it. Then  [the woman who texted she was in a child prostitution ring] told her ‘Look whatever is on the text is not true, but please, I ask you not to ask me, and forget this topic.’ And I really insisted, right? I said, clearly not. ‘Of course we will not forget it and I will call the police. Do explain this to me or I will call the police.” And suddenly Ceci [Cecilia Salinas, Emiliano’s sister and a High Rank {Green} in NXIVM] came in. We were in my office and I explained the situation [to Ceci] and she told me, “Just let me check that this is not one of the topics of the women’s group, this is it,’ and I was like, ‘what woman group?’ She says, ‘ a group of women that put commitments and support each other to transcend issues that they have not been able to manage to transcend and they put this type of collateral.’ I said, ‘ah’ It made sense to me and in my head I said, ‘ah, well, I know where this was born, you know? I do not know if it was born there or not [with the woman who made the video of her masturbating so she would not eat cookies], but I already have had that previous experience’ Now there are several women who are there, right? Making this kind of commitment to their word and I said, ‘oh, OK’ and said, ‘Well, shoot, you guys have to be very careful in how you send your shitty collaterals because damn we could have an explosion here in Mexico, eh?’ And then that was all, and then in the Coach Summit, I’m in San Diego, I’m telling I’m not going to go to the Summit, I’m introducing Sebastian [he was born], my son.

TZ: Yes, I was there [at Coach Summit]. I was there.

ES: I introduce Sebastian. I will not be able to go. The idea was to announce that Mark was leaving the organization and Omar was going to be [promoted] a member of the [NXIVM] Executive Board, but up to that part honestly, since I knew that Mark had been having a lot of issues for more than a year, issues that from my perspective had not been resolved, but what I understood was that Mark had finally decided not to continue and do something else. The idea was to pay tribute to Mark and we also did of not regret having given tribute, but what I want to say is from our perspective, this was still a friendly topic. Mark was given tribute. We introduced Omar as a member of the board and then the next day, – I was still in San Diego – and they tell me, ‘hey, ah, no, no, an additional point in the chat of the Greens [Sash],  they suddenly posted we are setting a meeting with the Greens so we go and have lunch at the Thai Sushi, no? This a meeting to agree on things for the Summit and other stuff and then I think that Esther [Chiappone-Calrson] put, ‘remember Sara Bronfman will get there late because she left I don’t know where so then we will just be Ceci [Salinas] and me [Emiliano] and right?  Then Sarah Edmondson wrote in the thread, ‘Emi, no.’ And that is when I realized that I did not tell Sarah that I was not going to be at the Summit because my babies were being born and I told her. I apologized because I had not warned her, not because I was not going to the Summit but because I did not tell her that my babies were born, and [I posted] ‘I apologize because since Mark had left I haven’t touched base with you to see how you are doing because I imagine it must be difficult for you now that you’re going to be alone with the Vancouver [NXIVM] Center, but it has been because of  my babies’ and she said, ‘thank you, the truth is I got confused because you did not contact me, yes it has been difficult. I am very afraid of how to face this now alone, yes its full of responsibilities. We will talk soon’ and that was it. The next day the Coach Summit started. I learned that Mope [Anthony Ames] was leaving the organization and that he was very angry. [Ed. Note: He was mad  his wife was branded.]

TZ: He went to make a mess there.

ES: Yes, what they told me is that he had gone to yell at Lauren [Salzman, Sarah Edmonson’s slave master] That’s what they told me. That he went to yell at Lauren, the second day of the Summit, and he left the organization. And then I wrote to Sarah and I said, “Hey, I just found out about Nippy [her husband, Anthony Ames] how bad it is?  How can I help you? How are you?’  and her answer got me confused because it was simply, ‘What did you hear?’ and the reason I got confused was because, ‘what did you hear?’ Are there several versions? If she would have said, ‘it’s like hell’ or ‘is not like hell and I will explain’ or whatever — but when there is only one version there is no doubt that another person listened. And when she asked ‘what did you hear?’ I felt, ‘What? Is she checking me out to see what she tells me?’ That’s what I told myself. It can’t be. Besides, maybe it’s something that is not public and I shouldn’t even know that he left or what it was. What they told me is that he had a problem with Lauren this morning, and he was announcing that he was leaving. So she told me, ok ‘if this thing is becoming ugly, I’m going to see my grandfather in Toronto’ and, I said, ‘good,’ and after that, two days later, I find out that she leaves the organization and why? Because Nippy had gotten angry because of the brand she had, a tattoo that a group of women had that she belonged to, and in a second, I said, ‘It must be this group of women.’ I’m telling you that I still did not understand what they were talking about. Then I said, ‘this must be this group of women and they had a tattoo, and a tatoo – it’s ok,’  and then I write to her and asked her what happened and I do not remember what happened but there were several things that began to make the situation hostile and she wrote to me a few days later and asked, ‘How are you?’ I told her, ‘well I feel in an alternative reality law that is happening through me right now, I mean I was going to go to Summit where we were going to announce [about Mark leaving], and I did not go because my children were [born] late. I was going to the Summit. I did not go because they were born at that time, but I was going to a Summit to tell Mark Vicente left the organization and that Omar was going to be a member of the Executive Board and that is to say, what the fuck apocalypse,’ and she said, ‘Look we need to talk. I want to talk to you. I want to explain this to you, but right now I am very confused. I do not want to talk to you now.’ This happened two weeks of 3 times were like 2 weeks and by this time Frank [Parlato] was already reporting everything, right? I got in [online on the Frank Report] and I saw what he was saying about the group of women that there was some kind of woman abuse, and sex trafficking, and everything that it [Frank Report] says.

TZ: All the shit that´s written there [on Frank Report].

ES: All the shit he [Parlato] says and I said, ‘Well this is like shit,’ but I was trying to  understand and the truth is that I cannot talk to many people because I was in San Diego and everyone in Albany was crazy about the issue, trying to arrange all this, trying to fix it but I could not talk to many people and so I read the Frank Report and it said that’s it.

TZ: Okay.

ES: And the truth is that one day I get into the Frank Report and basically I find myself involved. He was messing with my marriage, talking about my family, questioning my fatherhood, wondering if my children were Keith’s – with all that implies – that they were an experiment of Keith’s to create a super Mexican, talking about my wife’s shit, practically saying that she is a whore, putting together a theme of ‘what if I was really married to Alex, if my relationship with Mika [Ludwika Paleta, his wife] was a good screen. Well I mean –

TZ: pure scumbag [Frank Parlato] Emiliano.

ES: Pure scum and in the same article that he had written a day before, he was exonerating Mark and Sarah of anything. Saying all ESP  was crap, all they [NXIVM] are doing is sinister and is evil, blah blah blah blah and that Sara and Mark were doing good because they, when they realized this, they left and closed Vancouver ESP Center and Los Angeles Center and he applauded them for that. So I said ‘No. I do not have anything to talk to Sarah about. If the same guy [Frank Parlato] who is destroying my family and my reputation is exonerating her and Mark, well, definitely, I already know where this is coming from.’

TZ: Yes, I understand

ES: So, What this guy [Parlato] posts is very exaggerated, is distorted and it looks very badly written. For me, it has no credibility. You know what is the worst, and what is also a strategy that is known, it’s not a house recipe or a secret, it is a well-known strategy, but it is a very effective strategy: You say something that has certain grains of truth and then you add everything you want and the people who read it will tell you, but at least that is true, at least I know that little piece of it is true, then you know that it makes everything else look, if not true, at least possible. It makes everything else possible, and that is what, ‘plant a doubt’ that you never, ever get it out of your head. We see it in the module of Pride and Prejudice and that is precisely what it is to speak with dishonor when you manage to put something in the Internal Representation of someone especially if you can link it with something that the person knows is true. You can put the all the shit that you want in the Internal Representation of that person and you’re never going to take it out. Nobody is going to take it out, so then it turns not in some people that are not happy or satisfied, it’s a personal attack, and then I have information that these people searched for Barbara Bouchey and are now working with Barbara Bouchey and with all that group that is extorting us and now those are their instruments to carry out their extortion. And this is not something I’m saying, I’m telling you that this is [what we learned] in previous investigations in several countries.

TZ: Right.

ES: There is a criminal investigation for extortion and then Frank Report also reported that there is a criminal investigation against Sarah Edmondson for falsification of issues in Vancouver and for having stolen our database because at the moment when you leave the organization, still pretending it was a friendly leave, and we thought it was that way, we thought, ok, so if she goes to leave, let’s take over the Vancouver Center and see how we make this a smooth transition and so on and, as the protocol says, we ask you to return the materials and the information the database, because the database belongs, and is owned by ESP.

TZ: Ok, the database of all the students?

ES: Of all the students. They [Sarah and her assistant Jen Kobelt] keep the database and start talking to all the students in the database to unroll them from ESP, to talk shit about it,  they then become, at this moment, they become instruments of extortion. Because in the end that’s what they threatened us with, you do not give me that money and that’s what I’m going to do and that’s what they’re doing.

TZ: Ok, ok.

ES: So it’s not that we’re stuck in saying that a lot of ESP students left, and I understand that. No,  there’s a group of people who are conspiring to actively destroy our company and they’re actively destroying our credibility, our reputation, our relationships and there’s extortion of by means. Of course, the authorities do not see this because it is not just a threat now. They are fulfilling it.

TZ: Okay.

ES: And it is documented that all this started asking you for money for that, then as I want to tell you, when you land in all this because you can understand that we were a bit paranoid and defensive, then when you say: ‘Emi, right away they take me out of all the chats and they take Marial from the chats.’ It is not that this is exploding in the Frank Report and there is someone who is giving them information and I am going to tell you something else and I do not know if it is true and if it is true then I will also understand what your reasons were, but they told us that you had agreed to gather information for them and in fact you were coming for that.

TZ: Of course not, Of course not. I do not know why, Emiliano. I lost about 20 thousand dollars, because I did not go to V-Week because they took me out of the chats and I gave up on the organization.

ES: The decision to get you out of the chats came after they told us that you were coming to V-Week and that you were coming as a spy for them.

TZ: this week, Emiliano has been one of the most scum weeks of my life Emiliano because I was talking with a stream of people that where giving out information but I did not only talk to Sarah and with Nippy.  I spoke to a lot of people who have left the organization and are there I am definitely not part of any group, definitely. That is, as I talk to you and if I can understand it, I can understand it, but well, when one stays out here without having this data, I mean they kicked us out for asking questions, then they shut us up, well it’s like, shit Emi.

ES: Look, of course, I understand you. I want you to know and I hope you believe me, I do not think, I do not believe that the intention was to shut you up. I do not think. I’m going to tell you two things that came to my mind. The secrecy and the lies, when and I think you’ll understand why we’ve both coped with that. We all signed a confidentiality agreement when entering ESP. I do not want to say that it is secret, I mean that there is information that is confidential and that we do not want to reveal and therefore this.

TZ: What about the material? How does the material and the EMs and all the modules work and all that?

ES: No, you will understand that the fact that you keep confidential does not mean that it is bad.

TZ: Yes, it is correct, but for me it is very different from asking ‘;do not talk with such person; do not look for information outside; do not do that and do not ask.’  For me that is different Emi. It’s different. You sign a confidentiality agreement because you do not have to go explaining to people how the modules work and how they create the integrations and the content of everything that is said in the courses. But for me, it is very different from ‘do not ask anymore.’ ‘I can’t tell you,’ and ‘do not ask,’ and ‘you have an issue, you have an issue with knowing.’ Or do you disagree?

ES: I do not disagree with you, but I’ll tell you how I understand it. I think it’s going to make sense. If I sign a confidentiality agreement and then you begin to ask me why I have been so many years ago, I know what I can tell you and what I can’t. So I can have a very open conversation with you and know that there are things that I cannot divulge. I cannot reveal but I feel very calm about it. I have been 15 years in ESP and I have been dealing with people who take the course for 15 years and when they are asked about the course, they are paralyzed. They do not know what they can say and can’t and then each Intensive [NXIVM courses] I have to explain that it is not that it is secret; it is not that it has anything hidden, but that we are simply trying to protect the tools and the methodology of the information. But I understand when people finish the course and they ask them what the course is about and they say, ‘shit, now what can I say, because I don’t know if anything I say violates the confidentiality contract. I do not know if it violates it, or if it does not violate it, so you know what? It’s better that you go [To NXIVM High Rank] and find out.

TZ: Yes, I understand.

ES: So I do understand when someone is paralyzed. They do not know what to say to you and end up creating an impression that is not [accurate].

TZ: I have always felt very comfortable with being asked because I have always told them ‘it is a stream of material, it is a unique method, it creates an incredible experience. If I tell you, you will lose it, so it’s better if you go [to the Intensive], so you see [for yourself]’, that’s how I see it.

ES: Now this is what I tell [people] to say, but you will understand how many people forget that or, at the moment they are asked, they do not know what to say and they get tangled up and then they end up creating problems where there are none. Now I’m not in the group of [DOS] women but I can understand, when you ask me about Jimena because I witnessed this person who sent the text to my proctor [about being in a child exploitation ring] and she said, ‘[Please do not ask me. Forget you received the text and we were obviously more insistent, while she was telling us to no longer ask her. Obviously we asked her what was happening, right? Now if from the inside, the woman is saying: ‘Shit, dude, now if you ask me and if I answer something, then it’s like I am violating and wait, what? You mean then they are going to release my collateral? Shit as I am terrified, dude, right? Then I can be creating a monstrous idea when the only thing is shoot I do not know what I can say and what I cannot say.’

TZ: I know. I understand it. I understand it.

ES: Obviously, afterwards, I asked for them to explain what is happening and I am going to tell you something and that is a commitment that I have with myself and I have always had it. I have always had the same opposition that you have had from members from my family to my [NXIVM] involvement and that is not a secret. My dad [former Mexican President Carlos Salinas] has always been very skeptical [of NXIVM] and some of my close friends have never liked ESP. The truth is that for 15 years the only thing they tell me is. ‘Look at you. We see you are OK and that gives you the power to decide if it is a good thing or if it is not a good thing and what we see is that it has worked out for you.’ Then it is the best testimony, right? It is the best verdict. But in ESP among other things, we dedicate ourselves to challenging paradigms and challenging paradigms is always scary and I have often challenged paradigms where I have scared myself a lot and many times I said. ‘shit I do not know if I want to go in there’ and many times you say ‘shit, I don’t know if I want to continue here’ and often with genuine doubts and after saying, ‘let’s see. I do not know if this is ok,’ but what I can say is that in 15 years I have never asked anything I have not been answered to my satisfaction. There have even been other times where I have built other histories on my head and said ‘ok, this is clear’ and then I ask something and nobody answers for my satisfaction, because if that day comes, that day I am no longer here. In 15 years, this has not happened and I want to tell you that with the group of women I was also in that situation because I also was knocked out because I also started to get this information when I read the Frank Report and I said, ‘shit of course there was a part of me that said ‘dude I do not think that for 15 years we have supported certain values ​​and suddenly we have all gone crazy as it would be very strange,’ I do not think it did create me a  doubt, and that’s why I do not validate it on everyone but I did and I told that to someone that recently left the organization with this whole issue and I told him ‘look I want to tell you something Like everyone else, it shook me’ and he said. ‘yes me too,’ and I spoke to a lot of people just as some did and he said, ‘yes so did I,’ and I also worked on some reactions that I was having because I wanted to be sure that my perspective was not contaminated by my fears and reactions, and he said, ‘oh that I did not do,’ and I said, “no I don’t think anyone has because when we react to something the most common thing is not to say “oh, I’m having a reaction and I’m going to work it out,” the most common thing is in the middle of the reaction to say “no, shit, this is a problem” and maybe it is, but if you are in the middle of an emotional reaction, you probably will not know it. You have lived it many times you have a reaction with something you see it as a big deal and at the moment you make an EM and the reaction is removed and the disintegration is removed you say “I do not know why it was a big deal because clearly it was not.”’

TZ: Yes, I agree.

ES: There may be things that even without reaction, you say ‘this if it a big deal and I am not reacting but I can see this and this, if it is a big deal, and I can tell you why, right? I can tell you because it is something destructively measurable. I can tell you because it is something that I do not agree with but in the middle of an emotional reaction at least I cannot tell you objectively it is a big deal or because it is bad, I can only tell you why it is feels bad for me but that does not mean that it is right.’ Can you imagine, I decide I can stay with my disintegration and it is my right to stay with my disintegration, but watch out, there is no rule that says that you have to transform your perspective about anything but it is very different to stay with my reaction and my disintegration and with my issue if you want to, for that issue, do things that are destructive without having at least challenged my issue, and having seen if it really was right from my perspective, or not, or it is very different to say ‘I have an issue with this and I do not want to work it, but it is my issue and it harms me, but in any case, I do not even want to explore my perspective and now with this perspective that I have, I’m going to hurt you I’m going to do things that will end up hurting you, now that is really bad, because what if there is a possibility that this evil, I say this because no perspective is absolute, what if there is 10% that I am wrong, what if there is a 1% that I am wrong.’ I do not know if you saw the movie of the life of David Gale, a film by Kevin Spacey about the death penalty, right? And what this guy says is shit, it’s better if you’re very sure as a state that the guy that you judged and condemned is guilty because you’re going to kill him. Imagine if you were wrong, no, I’m not, I’m very sure, really? 100% sure because if you were 1% insecure its terrible to take the decision to kill someone, right?

TZ: Yes I agree but I can ask you a question, don’t you think, honestly, it’s a common sense issue, this group of women, we’re all in the same perspective, and again, you want me to explore my fears and ah, I had a fear and that’s why I do not see it as something bad, or man this is dark, this secretive, they have to kneel, to make a vow to Keith, dude, a lifetime vow to Keith, and their master and get branded and make these stupid things and how many EMs dude, how many dude, really like how many EMs.

ES: I’m not going to tell you how I see it because…

TZ: But I asked you a question, don´t you think its common sense, ask your dad, men, ask your mother, ask your mom, if she think it’s something good, or how is it you don’t think it’s a common sense issue, seriously?

ES: Well what happens is that common sense would mean that we would all have the same common sense

TZ: A sense, a general sense of what is good dude. You are going to go to the specific, you are going to go to the specific we are not going get anywhere.

ES: I’ll tell you, I do not need to go to the specific, if what you say is true, absolutely and I do not want to tell you that what you say is not true but if what you say is true absolutely they would have to close all the sororities of all the universities of the world.

TZ: Because do they get branded in the sororities?

ES: Because these practices came out of sororities, I mean.

TZ: It’s the whole set,  The thing is that you’re going to the specific thing you’re going to the branding.

ES: No, I’m talking about the way they structured it.  I do not know if you were in a fraternity at the university.

TZ: No but if I read about that, And if there are fraternities where they do it.

ES: Do not focus only on the branding what I’m talking about is how they structured it. Fraternities are secret societies that do not mean that they are doing something wrong and that is something that I think is important to see. I can keep a secret that I am making you a birthday party that does not mean I am doing something wrong? Usually there are things that when people are doing something bad they keep them secret I agree but then it doesn’t mean that anything that is secret has something bad. Logically no longer one thing follows the other. So all the fraternities and sororities are secret societies then it means that it is secret because it is also known of its existence. Masons are a secret society. We know what they do exist but what we don’t know is what happens inside because people make a commitment to secrecy. All this time that is what has been done. I mean it’s not a unique issue of this sorority and you will see in all the practices that are done inside fraternities and sororities you will find many similarities I do not because of this it turns into something bad.

TZ: It’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay if I understand your point.

ES: But the most delicate thing that seems to me is that I decide if what they are doing at the end of the day – and I am going to tell you that we do not have to agree. I can decide if what they are doing is not necessarily wrong and you can decide not necessarily what they are doing is fine, but I think that neither of them gives us the right to do destructive things with the people who participate in that.

TZ: Ok ok

ES: I mean, I can say it does not convince me. I do not have a good vibe that you should go to the party that you’re going to go to. Why not? I don’t know, maybe because why they drink alcohol and I’m against it or they use drugs and I’m against that.

TZ: Okay.

ES: But I do not destroy the party. Now if they are doing something illegal like this and I send the police to the party it’s ok but I do not create a blog to destroy their reputation.

TZ: I agree I agree.

ES: Until now no one has sent the police because I think they know deep down that in the end anything they report to the police would not be sustained because but nothing illegal is being done.

TZ: Right.

ES: So if there is something that they are doing that is harmful to someone or illegal then perfect point it out, but what I find very interesting about this group of people is that they are not denouncing anything, I am going to say and one of the criticisms, and I heard it from Alejandro’s mouth and that’s why I told you about it. We are very litigious, almost like saying at the least provocation they sue.

TZ: From Alejandro Junco?

ES: Yes

TZ: Okay.

ES:  He told this to Rosa Laura [Junco]; they are very litigious in ESP. Yes we have several litigations, it is one, the truth is that it is only one and it has had several stages but it has been accumulating people but something that is very important for me if I denounce your number 1 the complaint is not published, if there is a conviction the trial is not made public that preserves your integrity and your reputation and your relationships and so on, or if I denounce you I am protecting your rights because I am also denouncing you before a justice system. I am not doing justice from my own hand and I am giving you the opportunity to present your case and defend yourself and I am giving you the opportunity to have an impartial person to decide on the case.

TZ: Okay.

ES: That’s much more honorable than jumping the whole justice system and destroying you on the internet. I’m not giving you the opportunity to present your case. I’m not giving you the opportunity to have someone impartial decide on this and I’m not protecting your integrity as a person and your reputation in waiting to have a verdict. To destroy you from the beginning I will make this destruction public. Unfortunately this is what the media do and it is a very powerful weapon.

TZ: Right

ES: Then it has been confusing sometimes, I do not want to say that there aren’t more people like Jimena at this moment and I think it was more scary than anything else, ignorance of what she could say and what she could not say, nothing else, but she was confused in what they were willing to ventilate certain things and dishonor people when we decide not to give explanations because we consider what they are doing is dishonorable. Of course we will not do the same things back. You will not find a blog talking negatively about these people. You will not find that because it would be doing exactly the same thing that we are saying is dishonest.

TZ: Okay

ES: And they have told us many times is that their side of the story no one knows is that they are not saying is that they are quiet, the one who doesn’t talk is giving the other one the reason and all these stupid stuff, no sometimes remaining silent is the only way to be honorable. It is the only way to make it clear that this is not a mudslide between the two of us. We are doing the things that we consider honorable and the actions that you are doing that we consider worthy of being denounced are being denounced and at the same time we are seeking to preserve the integrity of the people. And to be honorable with people and it’s something they’re not doing with us, so do not confuse we’re being honorable with surely we’re hiding something and that’s why we have not made any statements about it.

TZ: Ok ok this if I understand it very well with respect to what you explain to this group of people more.

ES: Now we can agree or disagree with the things they are doing. The question I asked my dad, because I obviously talked to him, and explained, and I am going to tell you something. Curiously my dad was invited when he was younger to be a Freemason. He was a Freemason for a while and stopped being a Freemason and the subject of the secrecy just because of this did not cause him any issue. He did not raise an eyebrow about it and he said no, no, secrecy I understand that why I tell you what common sense for my dad would be, what secrecy I understand is common sense there and in many organizations they do that but someone who has never been in a fraternity or in an organization like that could say is that it is common sense that there should be no secrecy or there is common sense that if there is a secret, there must be something wrong. I say that common sense depends a lot on your experiences. I do not think there’s only one common sense

TZ: Okay

ES: Well if that is why we try to define good and bad in the Intensive, because if not we do not have a definition of good and bad you can say that something is fine and I can say that something is wrong and you think we are talking about what same when we say good and bad.

TZ: Yes  correct.

ES: Well no, right? Then the common sense about what is right and what is wrong would have to pass on a clear definition of what is right and what is wrong. Fortunately, in ESP we have it. And we can, I do not want to say that we are going to agree, but at least we can have a discussion that is more objective and rational and not only based on what I feel a ball of experiences that I had and do not remember. But because of this I say that something is good or something is bad or if something feels good or feels bad, no, eh. You also mentioned the lies that Jimena lied to Paloma. Once again I was not there. I do not know what happened there, but what I do know is that feel that they lied to them when they were enrolled, they wanted to say that they were deliberately lied to and cheated to put them in a place where it really was something different from what they had been told.  Not necessarily; you are a salesperson, it has happened to you, you explain your perspective of what it is, what it is about, and then people come and say, ‘I understood anything else,’ sometimes in a good sense there are people who come and say ‘I never imagined I was going to see was what I saw.’ Surely many times they have said this to you.

TZ: Yeah right.

ES: And sometimes on the contrary, right? They come to the program I mean, I have returned money to some people on the first day because they come and tell me this is not what they sold me.  They deceived me, let’s see, there is no deception, they explained to the best of their ability and with the knowledge, little or much, they had, they gave you their explanation, you came is not what they explained to you. here is your money returned. Now watch out that is very different to someone who has already taken the 16 days, {NXIVM Intensive] Characterization and Human Pain and then tell me this is not what I thought and it is still even more different than someone who already took the 16 days, Mobius, Characterization and Human Pain has a Debt with the organization because I know they had help funding Characterization and Human Pain and then say no, this is not what I thought and now I’m leaving and I do not have to pay my debt.

TZ: Does that happen a lot?

ES: There have been, some of the people who left who have done that. I mean, I have data to think that some of the people who actually left, actually left because they saw an opportunity to no longer pay their debts with ESP. And they blamed this whole scandal issue. In fact, I have data that certain people have been told to do that, they were told, if you leave, you no longer have to pay, if you leave for this reason and claim that you were cheated in ESP and that it is not what they thought, that ESP is destructive and an evil thing and that it controls people and abuses and other things, you no longer have to pay your debt with ESP. Don’t you think this is terrible?

TZ: Yes, I agree with you.

ES: I do not say that all people did that, but we have data that there are people who have done it and that there are people who have been suggested.

TZ: Ok well I would not support that Emiliano.

ES: I was saying, what I said to my dad is ‘Pa, from your perspective, from your experience, there are probably some of the things you are doing that will not seem like anything, you will never accept them, but the question is: Yes a group of women have the right to come together and set certain goals and certain mechanisms to achieve those goals, and decide how these mechanisms have to be, even if we like it or not? There will be those who think that women do not have the right to do that, I believe, that yes, because in addition, one of the first things that I questioned and questioned is to see, for me, it is very different, if they tell me a group of women. if you want, say a group of some crazy women, decided to get together and do this scheme to get their issues ahead, because I think its ok. right? But because their thing is really theirs and because, as women, they have a right, right? to decide what to do, is very different from Keith being involved in that. I even asked, and this I asked Lauren, I asked her, tell me something can Keith can see the collaterals? She giggled and said: ‘Shut up, I would consider that an abuse of power and authority, immediately, I would never consent to anything like this,’ and I said: “Sure! I do not know why I’m asking this question. I’m here, I know Keith 15 years, I do not know anyone who challenged more the issue of abuse of power. But because of what the Frank Report says I did, OMG! In one of those [Frank Report poses] Keith has the collateral in his house! In his computer and he sees them in the night, because that gives us a completely different situation, then it would not be a group of women who are deciding objectives and mechanisms that may seem extreme or even, well what would it be for right? If you want, but it is very different that there is a guy that is organizing that for his benefit, and that is absolutely false, as I say, there are certain things that are true,

TZ: Mmm hm

ES: But not necessarily bad

TZ: Yes

ES: And there are certain things that would be of the road but that are not happening, and the group has made this after I talked to him, he said, ‘son everything you’re telling me makes a lot of sense. I want you to put yourself in the position of someone who has no idea and come to tell you all this.’ I said, ‘Dad I understand everything, I understand you perfectly. It sounds sinister, sounds terrible.

TZ: Yes.

ES: But that’s why I say, what if it was not like that? Because yes, it sounds terrible to me and then I go for data and then it turns out that it was not what I thought, well, I was just wrong, but if it sounds terrible to me, and with the flag that it sounds terrible to me, I go and destroy things and people and then it turns out that it was not what I thought.

TZ: This could be terrible.

ES: Yes It could be terrible, Yes. So, that’s why I think you have to think a lot before acting, a lot, and that’s also why I called you, because I said, no man, I mean what we are doing can lead us to a problem where I do not see anyone winning and I’m not even sure it’s worth it because I do not think Toni is doing this with evil, with bad intention.

TZ: And then, then why did you raise a criminal complaint Emiliano?

ES: No, the criminal complaint has been filed against them for 2 years.

TZ: No no, no, why do they put me in the case of extortion?

ES: No, what you have is a summons, nothing more, to explain the actions you were doing and if you were in contact with these people, because that was what came to us.

TZ: Okay.

ES: You do not have, you do not have a complaint, you have a summons, because there were elements to think that you were collaborating with extortion.

TZ: Okay.

ES: But I’m going to tell you one thing, so you can see, throughout this process we have been very conscious of not violating anyone’s rights, because even if you had finished going to the subpoena you would have explained to the judge what was happening and the judge  would have said ‘Ah! Not this dude has nothing to do with this, possibly right?’

TZ: Mmhhm.

ES: It is not an accusation, as I already told you, from the side of where we were, being attacked and extorted and suddenly we started to see certain behaviors of yours, well, we freak out a lot, we said what is happening?

TZ: Yes, he has already become one of them.

ES: And then we have to defend ourselves, and defend ourselves in the most honorable way. We do not start to say, ‘Fuck Toni, no shit, what he is doing and also by the way Toni blah blah blah, no well fuck Toni.’  I think you have enough data that we are not like that and not only me, because the summons was given, but before that, Jack searched for you and Marcelo looked for Piero and we have, that is, what I want to tell you is, we have opened all the channels that we could to solve this, one to understand what is happening, and two, to solve it because we always want to leave the door open to that this was a misunderstanding.

TZ: Well I never did not answer Jack, I explained the same thing that I did to you, Emiliano.

ES: Mmh Hm

TZ: Exactly the same and with Jack the truth is that we could, we could not talk, because he tried to convince me and there, I think that is, that is beyond the point, right?

ES: You are right.

TZ: So how can we finish this Emiliano? It’s what I would mostly like.

ES: Ehh, well look what I told you yesterday is that you will talk with Alejandro.

TZ: Mmh mh Junco?

ES: Yes, because you did not have the data of the extortion, you did not have the data and he does not have it either, of the damage that this crazy man [Frank Parlato] is causing us. I’m going to tell you one thing, it may be that your ESP perspective will never be good again, maybe yes, I do not know, maybe Alejandro Junco’s is never positive.

TZ: Okay ES: But that is, that is, that is irrelevant.

ES: The point is that there is a group of people who are having criminal behavior and Alejandro has the impression that, as you said, we were trying to silence you, when you wanted to simply express your opinion and help people that are important to you.

TZ: Right.

ES: I do not know if that is clear to you, it is not our intention and it was not our intention, our intention was to defend ourselves because we saw certain behaviors that gave us to understand that you were contributing to an extortion.

TZ: Right, I can explain this perfectly to Alejandro, but we are also aware that I cannot control Alejandro, that is, I do not know what he will do.

ES: No, and it’s clear to me and I would not even have the expectation and if you had not said it, I would have told you, I do not expect any results from your talk with Alejandro beyond the fact that you have it.

TZ: Okay.

ES: Because I know how Alejandro is and I know that Alejandro, the reason why I wanted to have this conversation and go a little deeper with these topics is because I did not want for any reason that you went with Alejandro and told him something of what you were not convinced.

TZ: Right.

ES: Because surely, one, because it is wrong and, two, because Alejandro would have told you, ‘Son do not crack, they will not silence us, they will not shut us up, do not step back, let’s proceed with all the force.’

TZ: Right.

ES: It seems unnecessary and counterproductive.

TZ: If I understand it, and you know what? I can have a very good conversation with him, explaining this reason that I understand, I understand very well how he is, how is that they linked me to this, but now that, now that they know that that was not my intention, that I am not, I am part of that group, that I did not want to extort anyone, and that you know that, now, this is not clear, now the issue is Emi, how is this legal issue closed,? Because I hired a law firm to defend myself. How are we going to close this legally?

ES: Let me talk to my lawyers to see what is coming.

TZ: Mmh hm.

ES: Ehh, but I can talk about it It’s already night here, but it’s daytime over there.

TZ: Yes, the activity just starts here.

ES: Yes we can talk again .

TZ: And I commit myself, I promise to talk with Alejandro about this topic just like talked about it, I understand very well how the subject is and I’m sure he’ll be happy, he’ll be happy to understand this too, and know that this is going to end, the legal issue with me, and the rest Emi. I do not know what Alejandro would want to do.

ES: Neither do I, and the truth is that too much will depend on the perspective that he has, ehh I do not know right now whatever your perspective because no no no no I gave you mine, as it has been for me on this side but do you think really that the group, is a group that abuses women? Because that’s how it’s being presented, as a group that abuses women.

TZ: I have never thought that, I have never thought that it is a group that abuses women simply no longer I did not love the idea, I do not think it’s is something cool or what I want to belong to.

ES: And it’s ok, but there are many things that I do not want to belong to and I do not necessarily have to describe them as bad.

TZ: Right, right.

ES: The same and I say it’s not for everyone, and I do think that the group is not for everyone.

TZ: The truth is I changed the perspective after having this deep talk with you Emi because nobody had been willing to talk like that with me, nobody had sought me from that way, Jack I felt like, well, rather like aggressive trying to convince, instead of trying, hey, we’re going to try to understand each other like you did, it’s very different, I’m glad to have this talk with you .

ES: me too, and you know what? It is also the result of several talks I had, because maybe at some point I could not have this talk with you damn because I lacked elements, right?

TZ: MH hm, yes

ES: Because I still had doubts and, did you ever speak with Lauren?

TZ: no.

ES: I know she made you EMs, right?

TZ: Ah yes, yes yes.

ES: You never asked her about this?

TZ: of course, but not, go not openly, not openly this but, as it was, that is, it was rather ‘Jimena told me such a thing’ and we were already getting into EM and well in the EM already talk about my life right? of my things.

ES: Yes.

TZ: But no, no, I never had a talk with Lauren, with whom I had the talk was with Alex, with him yes and at the beginning if I said good well and well yes it’s ok,  is fine but no, not like this no.

ES: I think that, I think I would have done well, I think, because I asked Lauren a lot of things and she was so frank in her answers.

TZ: Mmh Hm.

ES: What did I say, you know what happened when I talked to her, that I said “oh men is Lauren” because of all this shit, you get so much shit in your head that suddenly if you start to see people different TZ: Yes ES: Right? and then even at some point I said “I do not know whether to ask, should I ask? Should I not ask? ” Right? and until finally, no? I said let’s see and I sat with Lauren and I said what’s up with this? What’s up with this? What’s up with this? What’s up with this? And as while she was giving the answers I said “man, if you have any idea that this looks completely different out there?” And she said “man I mean, I understand what you’re telling me, and the only thing I want to say is it’s not like that, it is not like that, the design was not like that, that is, it was not about that and I understand how it is appreciated “… and it told me” yes we screwed it up in many things, in many things of implementation “, that also now, and since we spoke about it and I see it, because they are natural errors of an organization that is being born, they are errors that we continue to commit in ESP after, well the year that enters it is the 20th anniversary of the beginning of ESP TZ: MH hmm

 

ES: And we continue shitting it in how we enlist and we continue shitting it in not filtering well the people that we enroll and we continue shitting in that we lack things in when we explain what it is and we need this, to consider more people in certain things, We make the effort but we keep on shitting it. TZ: Mmh Mmh ES: Then no no it would not make sense to me that they have not screwed up in anything, this, in this group of women in how they were, also organically trying to build, surely they got a lot screwed up, but in fact of that to be something sinister, there is a great abyss TZ: Yes, I agree, in fact, the first thing I thought was “shit, right now and never, that is, it was not needed in the organization”, that is, if this comes to light man, I entrust you to enroll Emiliano, It’s a shit man. ES: Absolutely, no absolutely, and the truth is that for everything that has already come out, I think that, I think (laughs) the group of women do not see much future, but now Jness is being contaminated because one of the things that my dad told me is ehh because Jness questioned, because my sister is a representative of Jness in Mexico. TZ: Mmh hmm ES: I said “Pa, I mean, he does not have, and besides, hey, one has nothing to do with the other. TZ: I, I said that to your father Emiliano, I told him that I had seen, and it is something that I have also talked with people, for example with Paloma, this that following the current of Jness following that, this ehh, was generated this group was generated, that is the understanding that Paloma has, I contaminated that to your dad was me. ES: No and I understand, and I understand where it came from, I understand that it was the other way around. In fact, the group had the intention of enlisting people ouTZide the organization, eventually even women of this group, the idea is that if they wanted to they could take ESP TZ: okay

 

ES: What I understand is that, when they were given an enrollment fee, then who were they going to enroll? Well your friends, right? Where are your friends? Well in ESP and Jness and it became a frenzy feeding, right? in Jness and where you just stood and said … Mika told me “hey and me why they never contacted me?” ha! because according to the Frank Report, Mika is, right? This, is involved and enslaved and I tell you that you question whether your children, if my children are mine or are Keith and whatever, but Mika told me “hey, I’m a little offended, why did not you invite me?” I said, I do not know why they did not invite you, the same and for me, or the same and because you posed for the babies and others and you did not go to the last two Jineses or you have been a year without going to Jness, more than a year , same and if you had been in Jness of course they had invited you. TZ: Yes ES: Right? and they ever asked me, someone who got out, tells me to see you have questioned, to see you would you like Mika to be in a group like that? dude the day they asked me, I did not know what to answer, I did not know well about the group, in one of those chances no, you know? TZ: Mmh hm ES: Today I say, you know what? I say, what I tell you, I think that this one does not have much future as they have, for all the shit that was generated, but the nature of the group, it seems to me good in fact, it seems to me that what they are doing, I do not know if they are doing it, the branding seemed very unfortunate, but I thought it was unfortunate, because I think they did not consider enough ehh the issues of the people, not because it is bad, to see I have I have tattoos all the body, and I have one near my Chile (penis) , to see if I convinced a group of friends that we are going to make a brotherhood and that we are going to make a boot camp and we are going to be good men and we are going to make a commitment of life, all the brotherhoods, by the way, the fraternities all make life commitment are members for life, that is not exclusive of this group either, if we say that we are going to make a commitment for the whole life and we are going to tattoo the Chile, you could say that we are a ball of pimps. (second 16:44 audio 4)But I don´t  think you would start a campaign to save us TZ: No  ES: Do not TZ: Do with your Chile whatever you want, dude ES: Do with your Chile whatever you want, the issue is that because we see women in this society, women feel that they are minors for life, and that we must save them from themselves TZ: Okay ES: That is the reason why this group exisTZ, is the reason why they created it, the intention with which they created it, in Jess, in jness, one of past jness in a debrief  Keith said a thing marked me, that is, it got into me he says “men have 3 options when we are left with something, we have the option to comply, I say we have 2 options when we are in something, we have the option to comply and we have the option of not fulfilling and face the consequences, those are the options that men have evaluable, TZ: Yes  ES: It says and women have 3 options, not 2, women have the option to comply, have the option of not comply  and face the consequences or have the option of play the victim card TZ: Right ES: And they forgive all the past. TZ: Yes it’s correct. ES: the objective of this group was to close the door to the third option. TZ: If the intention is good, I agree Emiliano, I agree ES: And if they irrigated it in several things that were not done, I think they would admit it to you. TZ: Yes, Ok ES: But it is very unfortunate that this whole problem has been created, all this loss of prestige, which has already negatively affected Jness, ESP, Rainbow, there are dads taking their children out of Rainbow, well you are a case, right? TZ: Yes, man ES: To demonstrate the point, which seems very unnecessary, very unfortunate, especially for the parenTZ in this case, the people who are leaving the programs because they say they are helping me a lot, what the fuck is this? do not? TZ: Mmh hmm If I am, exactly, I am a representative, if I am a case, I am an example of a case like that, right?  ES: And let me tell you something else, ask you one more thing, why did you mention it a couple of times and you may be right but TZ: Ask me, ask me ES: Regarding Keith’s sex life, what you said “it does not seem right to me to have sex with his studenTZ” and I think if Keith would systematically have sex with his studenTZ or take them from studenTZ to have sex with them probably or possibly it would be an abuse TZ: An abuse of authority, an abuse of power, right? ES: Mmh hmm but, how do you resolve this abuse of authority and power, for example in my case, I mean, Mika is my wife, at some point I started having sex with her obviously. TZ: You are a student, you are a, you are a follower of the teacher. ES: No, but Mika became my student, I gave intensive to her, I already had sex with her, I had sex with her before she got into esp, but the moment I entered esp I gave her the intensive, I did EMS I should have stopped having sex with her. TZ: No no because you’re not lying and you’re not lying to anyone you do not intend to hide it is not something you do not want anyone to know or keep secret. ES: Hehehe that’s funny because I understand you but I laughed because once they told me know what it means, and it was before I  was with someone else and I did an exploration where I realized what are you doing when you say I’m with such a person? TZ: Well, generally here in men’s theme I’m fu©§ng her ES: Yes, what about even the issue of women when you say that you are a boyfriend of someone or that you are with someone, what is this officially announcing, I officially announce that we are having sex this person and I TZ: Or they’re about to, right? ES: Well if it depends on where you are clear, that we are having sex or having sex so that no one approaches please, right? Please get notified.  TZ: Yes, go over there ES: We are going to be fu%&  her and me then do not come to me please then, now, not all the people you have sex with make it official. TZ: Right ES: It does not mean either that you are keeping it a secret and it does not mean that you are keeping it a secret because there is something wrong with it. I do not think anyone makes official all the people with whom they have sex with, in fact we would not see that person well. A guy who spends time saying to all the other ones that has fu$&% many woman we to tend not to see him with good eyes and is not a reliable guy. Now does this mean that there can be no abuse if a teacher has sex with his student? Possibly yes but nothing else for you to stay with this I was a teacher of mika. TZ: I think there is a line and I think there is a line and you have to take the person into account because if the girl does not do well (your student,) she does not do well with her psychology, this guilt or whatever it is and she goes out dude, you are responsible for that problem and you can not walk doing that because if you keep doing that you will not be able to be a head trainer. You’re going to create a terrible reputation maybe you can do it with one or two well controlled where you take care of the person and all this way topic, but here is a group of women who have had relationships with the guy for a short time and leave and if maybe invent, but I do not think they are inventing all those stories that coincide dude that is a position of too much responsibility You’re the example of a bunch of people, it’s like marcial Maciel dude I mean fuck, or at the time that was known it was a  bomb because you screwed up, I say here it’s never been said that there is celibacy but you have a position from too much you are putting too much responsibility in your position of consistency and trying on other people- ES: If with your differences the first is indeed that there was a vote of celibacy but the most important you are talking about minors you are talking about children that one of two that did not consent or did not have the capacity to consent, TZ: Here nobody has spoken of rape here, nobody has said that. ES: Well Frankreport yes and from there up TZ: Eh, ahh no no but not way Frank report I  look Frank report look at everything Sarah told me everything she said to me nippy I passed it through the eggs Emiliano because dude loTZ of people for  many years have wanted to destroy and I did not I believe that, really I believed it  with people that I spoke with and other testimonies that have nothing to do with them, nothing but good this, sorry returning to the point if I understand your point I understand your point more ES: Also let me tell you something else because for me  it’s a valid point, Keith is not the teacher of these women or Keith does not take mentoring women to sleep with them, the question is and Keith has never said neither is celibacy nor that is monogamous, and does not publicize and neither advertises what women he relationships or sleeps with because that could be an abuse of power because what happens if Keith says I have a relationship with such a person. Would you see that person the same way? TZ: No, no  ES: In many ways not, included in ah this is a person very close to Keith, that has benefiTZ TZ: Yes ES: Then I could even be hurting those people by making public that HE has an intimate relationship with them.  TZ: YES ES: And when I say intimate it can be even sexual or non-sexual it has an intimate relationship with them. But one thing that is certain is if ____ Keith resumes does not train these people, Keith does not make them ems, these people always refer them to someone else because he is always very careful, Keith does not check, does not approve promotions or Keith has a role that in fact is more removed from the studenTZ than I as a head trainer. I would have more responsibility in the relationship I have with the studenTZ and the staff because I approve promotions so I could infiltrate an abuse of power if conditioned, for example, to a promotion for a woman to sleep with me, that’s a clear abuse of power. TZ: But do not tell me that it is not an abuse of power, with authority and with the position of authority that he has,  c’mon man you would not do that man, for example Omar would not do that, you would go with some woman to a brothel where you want to go to have a lot of sex you go and you have it you do not see them again and that´s it but you cannot get to do that with THAT position this is what I say no it has nothing bad but no ES: Wait, I’ve been 15 years in esp., with mika I’ve been 7 years the other 7 years many of those years I was single. If I had a relationship with women in esp, TZ: But careful careful Emiliano did not make a scandal you have never had a reputation as a womanizer with your studenTZ you took care of that. ES: What I’m going to do is if any of them had gotten angry with me and ventilated my relationship that would have made the relationship abusive? Because if it’s true no one ever told me, and none of those women got mad at me TZ: It could be interpreted if yes, if that had happened a lot of people can in their opinion and maybe they would have said if  he did it but well  he is the head trainer ES: So it was not abusive because nobody knew? TZ: no, neither. ES: Because I took care of it and controlled it? TZ: Well It can also be abusive ES: Or maybe it is not abusive, sometimes we have the idea that all use of power is abuse of power. TZ:Well look I get the picture if I see how it is not an absolute and it can be interpretation ES: I’ll tell, to assume my dad was president, my dad was married in those 6 years, but  does that mean he has not had sex with anyone else? I do not know right? But my father was president of a country, a president of a country should then not have sex with any woman during those 6 years because it would automatically be an abuse of power. If the president has the country in his hands, the country imagine the power he would have over this woman. TZ: Of course ES: Then you should refrain from sex for 6 years TZ: He Should, he should for what he  represenTZ  I think that yes,  because when they do not do it and it goes public it becomes a chaos people say WTF if you are the president ES: Then you do not have to do it so that no one reacTZ, not because you have something bad TZ: Correct, correct, there may be nothing wrong with it, what I have heard with these people is that Keith is super careful he is very caring as he is the and as I know him, do not think that they have said oh he abused me and cajoled me not man, I only say let’s see they sold it to me in another way, I asked they denied it they denied it to me already , ok, it is fine to give it forward but me,  I won’t I do not want to support that,  it’s all , it does not scandalize me. ES: I’m going to tell you, for me I had unfortunately or fortunately a situation with a girl when I was a proctor and this girl was a coach and I had a relationship with her and it did not go well, and I had a relationship with her not because she was my student, man in the interaction of months because we ended up having a relationship, right?And then I did not handle it well and went to hell TZ: Okay ES: Then I remember that while I was working it and while trying to repair some of the damage I had generated because if I caused damage, I said that. It was bad from the beginning because I as a coach should not have had a relationship with a member of my staff but I realized that I had a rule about it, or for me it was wrong because it is wrong because if and in all cases It is wrong if in all cases it is wrong and I really end up realizing that it was a rule and that I had not even evaluated it TZ: Big fat rule ES: Big fat rule, and the moment I started to explore this specific situation I began to realize that as you say, the more authority you have over a person, the more responsibility you have for that person, but that does not mean that any interaction have that person be an abuse of authority what if you have to be much more careful in your evaluation because the impact you have is much bigger TZ: Exact ES: You are a gorilla in a glassware and you have to behave like a gorilla in glassware, I do not see that there is something wrong with the life that Keith decides to take with the people he decides to take and I consider Keith to be a person who is very mindful. And I’m going to tell you honestly I think some of those relationships have ended terribly well, it’s public, I’m not saying there they are, I do not want to say that this relationship was abusive, nor do I want to say that it was wrong what I mean is that I end up wrong TZ: I agree with you I agree with you ES: And good there are relationships that end badly in many circumstances not only in that. And there are some in that circumstance that have not ended badly then there is a bit of everything. But well that’s me, that’s how I see it, I’m telling you, just for one thing TZ: This Emi, for me this talk is well cool we really because I feel very soft with the subject dude now more, I feel that I have been very angry for me it is wonderful to have this talk with you I tell you ES: Ok no, well, I do it enchanted TZ: I mean, I feel like I’m hearing it for the first time after this happened, I really appreciate it. ES: And you know if I wanted to stop at the Keith issue because I know that you have considered Keith to be someone who has helped you in your life significantly. TZ: Yeah that’s right ES: And I would be very sorry that you stained your internal representation of him perhaps unnecessarily, right? Because I also imagine that it would be something that would hurt you. Something that has hurt you TZ: Yes, yes, it is quite correct, because for me more than the women for me it was this sexual theme, but I do I understand you I understand you and I see the perspective and however I have mine I mean  I do not agree ES: And you do not have to agree, we do not have to be fortunately, we do not have to agree on everything, look at one of the modules in the crime and punishment module, you remember that we talk in the world that you treat others as you would like them to. they will treat you and then another world that all interaction requires a mutual and honest agreement, that is one of the values ​​that I believe and aspire to have in my life, right? We do not have to agree on everything, we just have to agree to have mutually agreed and honest agreemenTZ, mutually agreed and honest exchanges, if there are people who are having exchanges and they do not seem to me I do not participate in those exchanges but if I recognize the right of other people to participate in that exchange they do agree TZ: Right ES: right? TZ: Right ES: Okay, Ehhhmmm ok well let me think I know Alejandro is in Italy TZ: He´s in Europe right ES: He´s in Italy and I’m sure it’s going to be moving around and it’s going to be a month, I do not know what to do with the time issue because as I told you yesterday, I’m very worried about Alejandro taking certain actions that later, even if he wanted to reversing them I could not then I think I do not know, I know Alejandro decides about his life and that the most you could do is give him your perspective we cannot have another expectation TZ: Right ES: But I think that the sooner the talk  happened the better to avoid anything TZ: No, I can try to contact him by hanging with you Emiliano. I can write to him or I can try to dial him hanging with you and I can have that communication today I can almost assure you. ES: Okay TZ: You think you can talk to the man, with your lawyer ES: ’ll talk to the lawyer TZ: And we will talk  again in a few hours, but you have to sleep, do not you? ES: The truth is that I’m still not sleepy because I was asleep on the plane, I will go to sleep but I still have a couple of hours, look touch base in an hour TZ: Okay ES: And probably you have not talked to Alejandro in an hour but let’s see if at least he already answered your text that you want to talk to him and meanwhile I talk to the lawyer and we talk again in an hour and we see that it continues TZ: OK well ES: If you contact him before, send me a text and if I talk to the lawyer before I send you a text and we’ll talk again TZ: Well, what you want is for me to tell Alejandro this perspective I will explain, I will tell him my talk with you or I am going to tell you this talk of friends, this I am sure that this will soften it, I mean I’m not sure but I think that if and above all the legal issue ES: If I think it’s important as I was telling you yesterday he will not hear from me that Mark and Sarah and company are doing something criminal, but if he can hear it from you,  he can be open to hearing from you also with a good intention that him without knowing is supporting them because let’s see I know what Alejandro is like , Alejandro has an upbringing but he is a person who wanTZ to do good things and that has always been clear to me TZ: yes right ES: And I believe that Alejandro, if he knew, he would not lend himself to supporting these behaviors to support what these people are doing, because he has been the victim of this extortion. TZ: Correct correct ES: Because he has been a victim of this defamation then I am sure that if he had the data he would not support this group of people TZ: Do You know Emi you know like by heart these names from the list, all the names, the group of people that are in the list of people because I only managed to see susan Dones and Barbara bouche, do you know the names ES: Not all because there were many, there was a lawyer who worked for Sara and Claire and that  ended up stealing money, he is also on the list. There is a guy who was another blogger, not Frank Parlato, sorry it was another blogger called John Tighe. He went to jail for pedophile, nothing to do with us, but he ended up in jail, and there was–.

TZ: I mean, because maybe the case of extortion, I imagine that is in the United States in the open court of New York that I remember names you well damn  the only ones I know is Susan downs and a Barbara bouche. But there is a Mr. O’Hara, Toni Natalie ES: That’s Claire’s lawyer, that’s Claire and Sarah’s lawyer TZ: O hara ES: Joseph or hara TZ: Ok and then they mentioned me to a new one or that one I had not seen before, Mark Sanchez, who lives in San Antonio, the lawyer that supposedly is the one who was pointing me out, so I have not seen the file because the lawyers have not been able to see it and I wanted to know how  I ended up there as they put me there in the case no? ES: Aja I can send you the file I do not think there would be a problem TZ: So I am not necessarily someone from that group, or how does it work, or how is it that I end up there ES: No, you ended up there because of the data we had that you were interacting with Sara Nippy and Mark and the data we had that they were interacting with these people, with Barbara with Susan and with ummmmm  Kristen Kith TZ: Okay, okay,  Kristen Kith is also in that group of extortionisTZ ES: Yes too TZ: And Mark Vicente and Sarah are not in that group or they are not sued because they have not been reported or how is that? ES: Not until now. We have proof that they have never been in the lawsuit because they had never done anything and a month ago we obtained evidence that they are in direct communication with the extortionisTZ and we have information that they are systematically destroying the company and the companies reputations and relationships then legally that is considered complicity TZ: OkaySo, well, in one hour we will contact ourselves, do you think it’s good? I am writing to Alejandro while we hang up ES: Oka TZ: Thanks Emiliano ES: I send you a hug we talk in a little while. TZ: Same to you   Note in Spanish THE WORD EXTORTIONIST IS 29 TIMES